CAD/CAM discussion forum > 3D CAD/CAM > When is VX going to work on 64 bit XP the way it does on 32 bit windows?

When is VX going to work on 64 bit XP the way it does on 32 bit windows?

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Mark

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Message 1 of 15

 When is VX going to work on 64 bit XP the way it does on 32 bit windows?
29-05-2008 08:33 . am | View his/her posts only
When is VX going to work on 64 bit XP the way it does on 32 bit windows?
Simple question.
Both myself and my colleague have migrated towards 64bit workstations.
In no way does vx behave the same on both.
As previously posted we constantly get 'out of memory' and 'object does not exist' messages, requiring constant restarts of VX and saving at times we rather didint.
Both on 12.93 and 13.50

Dont tell me that it is not compatable because our vendor offered to sell us 64bit windows hardware 5 months ago.

Qu.
Should we reinstall windows 32 bit or wait for a version of VX that works equally on 64?

2 people not happy and for some time.

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 2 of 15

29-05-2008 09:16 . am | View his/her posts only

Hello theMIB

All of today's modern PCs have a 64bit processor, including "home" PCs. However, not all processors are created equal, so even if you have Windows XP64, the actual processor choice could be critical. VX is compatible with the mainstream desktop PC processors from Intel (Pentium 4, Dual Core, Core 2 duo) and AMD (Athlon). Most processors designed specifically for the desktop should be fine. Other processors however can require software, as a minimum, to be specifically compiled for their instruction set, in which case VX could be incompatible. I see that you have the Xeon processor, that CPU is special, as is your particular dual CPU set-up. Desktop software would have to be specifically designed for that processor to get the best performance from it, I do not know of any mainstream software applications that are so designed.

VX is currently 32bit only but should run fine on Windows XP64, with a mainstream CPU. This is enabled by Microsoft's technology. We aim to produce a 64bit version of VX for release 14, subject to what ever Microsoft do about their recent Vista OS problems (rumours abound that they will not be fixing Vista but instead will quickly replace it with Windows 7 ("Touch")).

If you run PC Wizard 2008 on your PC, that can produce a detailed report about your system which will help us to determine if VX is compatible with it.

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Mark

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Message 3 of 15

29-05-2008 09:21 . am | View his/her posts only
I have asked my vendor repeatedly, could it be my machine.
If it is we will look at that no question.
Tell me where you want any results sent and what settings anyoou will have them.

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 4 of 15

29-05-2008 04:07 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hello theMIB

I have received your email with the PC Wizard output (superb util).

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Mark

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Message 5 of 15

30-05-2008 04:21 . am | View his/her posts only
OK Chris, any feedback?

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 6 of 15

30-05-2008 05:58 . am | View his/her posts only

Hello theMIB

There are some anomalies in your data, not for Forum consumption, I will email you directly.

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cutter

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 7 of 15

02-06-2008 11:49 . am | View his/her posts only
Hi Mib, curious to know how it works out as I am running a duocore 5150 Xeon which I bought simply because it is recognised as the best for workstations, Xeons are that is. You are right Chris, the Xeon is special and is designed for high end workstations and servers and is better than mainstream but however it is certainly not unusual. I run 32 bit on XP pro and don't have a lot of issues. I had a p4 3.4ghz PC that I retired recently to the shop where it now runs the mill and before it went out there had the hard drive wiped and reinstalled all. It shuts down and boots up in 1/3 the time my highpowered Xeon does and I have come to a conclusion on this. I run a program called CCleaner that was recommended to me and one of it's functions was registry cleaner and repair. I believe it has caused issues. I also have concluded that it is worthwhile to periodically wipe and reinstall every thing as the OS seems to degrade over time leading to slowdowns, locked up functions and errors . I have a hot M90 notebook that has slowed to a crawl that in the year I have owned it and I will be wiping it soon and I expect that it will be like new again. I don't think there is any benefit, except in rendering from what I can tell, to having gobs of CPU's which is why I stayed with a duocore. From what reviews I have read nobody's software has kept up with chip technology for using multiple cores. What do you do with that horsepower if I may ask? Cutter

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 8 of 15

02-06-2008 04:08 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi cutter

You have somewhat hit the nail on the head there, because not only are genuine multi-processor + multi-core applications rare, Windows is not optimized for them anyway. Like most Users, I have an Intel Core 2 Duo. It is faster than it's Pentium predecessor, but that has as much to do with the better architecture and materials (runs much cooler) as having two cores. I doubt there are many people that manage their cores because although it is highly desirable, Windows makes core management awkward to do, and then tramples all over it anyway. With regards to the Xeon, it depends which member of the family one has, some being essentially the Core 2 Duo (like yours, the "Woodcrest") and others having a different architecture. If a program is designed to work with multi-processor multi-core systems, it is very often a database application, (SQL server etc), and very often that is for the bean counters of large organizations. The term "workstation" used to be most associated with the engineering industry, but that no longer seems to be true. Multi-processor + multi-core setups are special, to realize their full potential, everything has to be designed around them and that is comparatively rare.

Regular System maintenance is good practice. Defrag your hard drives, including the pagefile, at least once a week (but not USB key or SSD drives). Run a spyware catcher program (I use Spybot Search and Destroy). If you do not already do so, you will be surprised by what is found.

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Kevin

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Message 9 of 15

03-06-2008 07:30 . am | View his/her posts only
Most rendering software and most FEA software is multi processor/multi core aware. For example Hypershot runs nearly 2x faster on an 8 core Mac than on a 4 core Mac. One important thing to remember though is that even if an app can only address one core, it leaves the rest of the system available to address the other cores. Turn on activity viewer in Windows to see this in action. Mac OSX is very multiple core aware - the whole system runs faster on a faster multi core machine. The other thing is that some parts of applications are actually multiple core aware and some are not. This has been debated in depth on the SolidWorks forum as well and the results are interesting. What they found was that modelling kernel calls to parasolid are not multi aware (so things like filleting, shelling, rebuilds etc are not), whereas drawing view creation and editing is, FEA is and Photorendering is.

Anyone know if Vista is better at this than XP Pro? Again, the SW people are finding that SW runs 10% faster in Vista than XP Pro. Also, they say, that Vista 32 can address the full 4GB ram you get on many machines these days, whereas XP can only deal with 3GB.

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 10 of 15

03-06-2008 08:55 . am | View his/her posts only

There have been a multitude of independent tests published on the internet and they generally show XP/XP Pro32bit performance to be better than Vista32bit. The bigger problem is for larger applications like CAD-CAM that require full OpenGL. Vista can "hog" the graphics card (using DirectX) and thus spoil the performance of the OpenGL - based programs. Inevitably, many people that are running Vista are doing so because it arrived pre-installed on a new PC. That new PC is likely to out-perform their old PC, and thus the overall Vista experience may not seem too bad, especially at first with few apps installed and no seriously large projects embarked upon.

Vista32bit does support 4GB ram but because of the way it has to map-out the memory, only approx 2.5GB is actually available for Use by applications (the CPU and other components require a large chunk on both Vista and XP). Vista itself requires more RAM than XP. Thus, XP is (slightly) superior in that department and it too can handle a 4GB system, but each application is limited to 2GB by default (unless the infamous /3GB switch is used, a popular work-around for CAD systems that are less efficient than VX).

Concerning multi-core, if an application is dedicated to a single core, that should be great but the practical reality is that you cannot manage the other cores easily in Windows and Windows will randomly use that "dedicated" core for it's own purposes too. Still, it is a stride forward.

Clearly, the way forward is 64bit OS. Tons of RAM, long file names - perfect for CAD-CAM. I am not sure about Microsoft's Windows Touch, is that how everyone would like to use their PC? No mouse? I remember using a light pen on screen back in the early Computervision days - all the designers developed the biceps of a Wildebeest. It sounds as though it could be even more demanding of the system too, which from the CAD-CAM view point might not be too good. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new OS available in the future from Mr Intel.......




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Mark

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Message 11 of 15

03-06-2008 09:30 . am | View his/her posts only
Hello Cutter and Chris.

Chris has looked into this for me.
My hardware vendor has been asked some questions.
You are right the rendering flies.
But VX is NOT happy on our setups. (x2).
Will come back if I sort this, (unlikely) *-(

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Kevin

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Message 12 of 15

03-06-2008 10:08 . am | View his/her posts only
Microsoft soft touch more like

Honestly, it makes me laugh to see all that stuff considering this was displayed by Apple years ago, and multi touch was introduced onto Mac laptops and iPods 18 months ago. Having used the multi touch interfaces on the Macs I can see the benefits for actually touching the screens but I'm not sure how this actually translates to application interface design for desktop machines. I've used a Wacom Intuos tablet for a long time and I recently looked at the Cintiq and it is a unique system, but the problem is that to get a decent size of display the cost is very high. The other thing is that beyond graphics applications like Alias SketchBook or painter the support for these devices is poor - not support in terms of mouse replacement, but support for that actual functionality of using the pressure sensitivity or angle.

There are areas where these devices could revolutionise input control - one example I recently proposed elsewhere was to use the pressure sensitivity of the Wacom pen to control the radii of fillets on an edge - select the edge, and just press harder or softer to change the radius as you draw along the edge, or for doing patterns of fill objects like grips. Load up the p[en with the feature to be patterned and scribble on the surface, the spacing and depth of the feature controlled by the angle or pressure of the pen.

I don't think there should be an issue in designing interfaces around a particular input device - look at the 3D spacemouse. That is a pricey piece of kit than - when you get down to it - only provides zoom,rotate,pan and a few macros for most applications, yet every CAD vendor on the planet seems to be building this into the applications. Pen based input is, I think, a far more relevant and potentially useful way of doing things.

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ChrisWard2k2

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Registered: 2011-11-22

Message 13 of 15

04-06-2008 05:57 . am | View his/her posts only
Hello Chaps

If anyone would like to see how much RAM is being used at any given time, there are a few "RAM Viewers" that can display the amount of ram available via the Windows System Tray (next to the clock). Most of these Utils can free-up redundant memory too.

Edit: I'm now using an even better RAM Manager, CachemanXP:

CachemanXP Website

It can list all your major processes and you can attempt to reduce the amount of RAM that an individual application is using - great for keeping the web browser under control.

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cutter

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Message 14 of 15

06-06-2008 05:01 . am | View his/her posts only
Hope this came through. For what it is worth you can only get abround 3.4 gig of ram to work on xp pro 32 bit. Here is the instruction on how to get this set up on your computer.

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 15 of 15

06-06-2008 06:08 . am | View his/her posts only
Chaps

Cutter is referring to the Microsoft "/3GB switch". VX, and most other 32bit software, does not actually support the switch. VX uses RAM much more efficiently than many other CAD systems (ex SolidWorks Users notice this generally by the response times from VX). That said, people are doing far more with their CAD data these days, which is why VX will be moving up to 64bit and the huge RAM allocation that brings with it.
See also