CAD software discussion forum > 3D CAD/CAM > Dreaded question also known as V15 release date

Dreaded question also known as V15 release date

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 1 of 21

 Dreaded question also known as V15 release date
18-01-2011 12:30 . pm | View his/her posts only
I know, no one can really say anything but in a fit of idle curiousity I pondered today the eventual arrival of V15 and the growing a bit list of V14 versions before V15. How are things going and does before this summer seem reasonable to expect it? Inquiring minds want to know.

Rank: 1

OldForumPost

Newbie

posts: 0

Registered: 2012-1-14

Message 2 of 21

20-01-2011 07:52 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi, cutter

For the official release, it is hard to make the official announcement now, it depends on the development and customers' real test. For the preview version, It will come probably before March.

Rank: 1

Robert

Newbie

posts: 0

Registered: 2011-11-22

Message 3 of 21

20-01-2011 08:01 . pm | View his/her posts only
Summer is reasonable... yup...

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

Paul

Moderator

posts: 314

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 4 of 21

20-01-2011 10:23 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hey Bob, sounds leaky..

You seen this? Youtube

I'm sorta curious why you wouldn't leak a video like that to the forum first as a sorta courtesy...

So what else do you have up your sleeve in 2011 you'd like to Show n Tell???

and why not put it on the ZW3D website first....

Rank: 1

Steve

Newbie

posts: 0

Registered: 2004-10-9

Message 5 of 21

20-01-2011 10:36 . pm | View his/her posts only
Nice!

Rank: 1

Robert

Newbie

posts: 0

Registered: 2011-11-22

Message 6 of 21

21-01-2011 06:21 . am | View his/her posts only
You got me... I should have leaked it first to the forum as a courtesy but it hasn't actually been approved by anyone at the head office so I left it on my youtube site (I could have hinted though so I'm sorry for not doing that).

Plus, it's got the "old" interface so I really should recapture and remix when the new interface is completely... complete (read between the lines here, we're having some minor icon transparency problems).

I intend to shortly release another bobf4fun video highlighting the new ZW3D 2011 Automatic Feature machining (one button... selects tools based on feature recognition then top-mills the flats, roughs, rest-roughs, finishes, rest-finishes and gives you a complete CAM plan that you can "tweak" until it's perfecto).

None of these are corporate approved so I run the risk of... ah who cares, I'll leak 'em anyway

Rank: 1

Dave

Newbie

posts: 11

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 7 of 21

21-01-2011 12:08 . pm | View his/her posts only
You know Bob, I think you have a sadistic streak.

I certainly won't speak for anyone else, but when you show things like the Youtube short on V15, you start me salivating. My ability to control my patience becomes limited. Any released date other than tomorrow is really disappointing (said with tongue in cheek).

Dave

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

Paul

Moderator

posts: 314

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 8 of 21

21-01-2011 05:03 . pm | View his/her posts only

Can a leopard change it's spots?

Good on ya Bob, feel free to leak like your sinking.

I have no idea why I would ever design in the way the video demonstrates, but what the heck, it looks like FUN.

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 9 of 21

21-01-2011 06:08 . pm | View his/her posts only
Perhaps the intitial design is best done in traditional in some cases. I never do this any more though especially in assemblies where you find out things may not line up quite right. Fixing this kind of stuff in direct editing is mind bogglingly easy compared to what you are used to. Families of parts are where direct editing will really benefit you. Customers like some of mine who are always calling with changes to existing parts are not a trip through the hisory tree now and I just take a chainsaw to the whole "forest" and move on. And then you get to how easily you can edit parts from another cad program you wonder how you ever were happy with how you did it before. I have both tools at my disposal and I have probably not used straight parametric for part creation in over a year now and never look back. If you guys have never had a chance to seriously play with direct editing you are in for a real treat. For me it is both a different and a better way. If this is implemented well there is nothing else in the history of VX ZW that will come even remotely close to the power you will now have.

Perhaps complex surfacing is one area where direct editing falls short currently with programs I am familiar with but that is I would think less than 10% of all MCAD or CAD work done. If ZW does this well in conjunction with complex surfaces AND typical MCAD stuff the only thing to really hold them back from getting market share will be things like that awful sheet metal module they have.

Let me put it this way, you send me your SW Inventor or ZW file right now and I will work on it in 1/4 the time you will and I didn't create it. That is the power of direct editing.

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

Paul

Moderator

posts: 314

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 10 of 21

21-01-2011 07:17 . pm | View his/her posts only
So Dave, I can see how DE other folks work is now straightforward WYSIWYG, but how does it work in the creation of new stuff?

e.g it is always easy to edit someone elses words than too create them in the first place. We don't just start with a blob and tweak it. There has to be knowledge, order and intent.

I am gob smacked when I see the some of the edits demo'd. Not at what can be done in software, but that a part should actually change that much and still be useful in real world sense. I can see how it can work in correcting anomalies in an assembly, where it becomes a new kind of 'soft' alignment tool. It's like the parts are made in jello until lit is already for final approval. I mean just how real is that?

Its kinda like the idea of evolution. In theory it makes new things, but in practice there is always a loss in information, a reduction in complexity, resulting in less DNA than was originally present.

I get to wonder how well folks organise the parametric relationships in assemblies. I begin to wonder that folks ain't using the tools that well either because they cannot figure the tools or have no idea how to go about it regardless.
Cheers

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 11 of 21

22-01-2011 11:15 . am | View his/her posts only
I can't say anything about the ZW version and the videos I was hoping to see a year ago never appeared so I will reflect upon brand X. You create parts with sketches on plane or face and can extrude remove to create parts from there. The dimensions can be driving which means locked in and can't be changed til unlocked or just assigned and editable at any time merely by clicking on the dimension. Basic parts creation stays like you are familiar with and there is not a big time savings there. Everything else related to a part is done far more quickly with direct editing especialy imported parts.

The example Bob posted on Youtube seems to be a favorite type of part for most of these companies and is a bit deceiving in that yes thats exactly how it will work for that part but how it will work for your's may be different and how faces can be related to each other for edits is important in making it work well. It is a different way and you have to learn to work with both faces and sketches.

One of the big controversies over the past two years at the Brand X forums have been between those who like straight parametric for it's precision and are willing to take the extra time it takes to figure everything out precisely to create parts. The other camp, which I am in feels that parts are just as precise by creating say a block, then creating my set of holes in the block and assigning dimensions to the holes at that time. I also believe it is quicker this way as having had access to both methods I find myself doing it this way almost all the time. But see the beauty of direct edit means that I am going to be able to change my geometry if I need to without going through the history stuff and watching it all rebuild all the time. Lets all admit that we do change our parts no matter how much preplanning we do with correct dimensions when we decide to change the fastener size for instance to accomodate an unknown but now revealed and neccessary design change to make the part right. I am done with my edit while you are still refiguring the sketch and have not even reached redoing the feature nor going through the history to regenerate the part and that assumes that you have not done something to make the part regen fail. It's kind of like regarding a Swiss Army knife. Yes you could have brought a tool pouch along with all the tools seperately available to you or you could have reached into your pocket for your all in one tool. In assemblies when I discover that something does not quite line up I can edit the part in place and I dont once look to the history but can indeed edit the bad feature using the part it is to relate to as a guide and align the features right there and the heck with all that sketch extrude remove regen junk and that is a BIG deal.

Direct Editing must be a very hard thing to implement correctly and every company that has done so with software based on parametrics has had trouble. For example Inventor has yet to get a good public release and Brand X used it's users as beta testers for two years and both of these companies have and did devote far more resources to doing this than VX had available.

For me, the very first time I saw a part created in VX editied and done in the same amount of time it would have taken me to nearly finish just the first of two sketches required for edit and not have to do the history junk it just blew me away and that is where all my parts are done now. There are still some guys at Brand X that grumble about the whole thing but for those of us willing to give it a serious try I think it is safe to say that this is where we do the vast majority of our work now. My big concern with the ZW direct editing is will they allow for completely parametric parts creation without having to use direct editing to get there as a fallback for when the direct edit fails, and it will at times because they are going to have to make a decision to release it at some level even with known problems because they have taken way to long to finish this.

Paul, if you never have to edit your created parts, you never have to work with anyone elses cad files and your geometry creation is perfect with parts going into assemblies or elsewhere and never needs revision it's possible that direct editing will not be that exciting for you. I think however that when you start using it and go through the irritating beta tester phase that is coming and the learning curve it will be where you will do most of your work. Have you actually had a chance to play with direct editing yet? Seeing is believing or at least it was with me when I took my part in and said fix it and don't use your part for the demo.

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

Paul

Moderator

posts: 314

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 12 of 21

23-01-2011 04:35 . am | View his/her posts only
Hi Cutter,
thanks for the effort.
I am the originator of most of my work (so far) so this is a design & dimension driven process.
However I am about to do some work with imported SWx files. I will be looking at a major redesign if the dynamics work the way I expect. Just having the ability to import the parts is a big help. Do I really want to change the parts? In this case I don't think so as the changes will be radical.
I will keep my eyes peeled as to how I might DE them instead though. I still have to do the design thinking which is the time consuming part.
Now it would be mighty interesting to hear some comments from Bob as to how ZW is dealing with the question of parametric updates/history relationship etc. Unofficial is OK

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 13 of 21

23-01-2011 01:08 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi Paul,
Thinking about what you are saying here in the area of redesign. It's really hard to comment on ZW because we know nothing about how they are going to implement DE. I know some of the guys who are involved with FEA really like the direct editing for various reasons one of them being that they can change the nature of the part without having to know the design methods used and can play with the "dumb solid". What you start out with may not work well when you run the analysis and DE changes things faster than anything else. With Brand X in assemblies I can create a part in place using whatever features I want to reference from an existing part and go from there. If a part fails in analysis I can change the offending part and the ones around it with ease. Try that in a complex machine when what you need to change is part#5 out of 2,000 and tell me how that goes in straight history based parametrics. When you get into MCAD work there are other things besides just DE that can make life so much easier, although DE by itself is worth getting.

I am thinking that VXZW may be changing the nature of it's offerings soon from being a niche player with surfacing and mold and die to pursue the MCAD market which is after all where the vast majority of the work and sales to new cad customers really is. If they are going to do that then there will be some long overdue additions to capabilities. Let me rephrase that, if they intend to do that they will have to make a bigger tool set here and make what is here more easily used. I use the cam side of ZW all the time but for cad creation basically never because I know how to do things much more easily and it is certainly my hope that this will change. I know I am keenly interested because I don't want to continue with yearly fees to two companies and I am hoping ZW gets it's act together for robust MCAD.

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 14 of 21

14-03-2011 06:03 . am | View his/her posts only
Hey Colin,
"For the preview version, It will come probably before March." Today is March 14th and I am wondering what the heck is going on. It is a REALLY long time here getting this out. After two years between version releases ZW is pushing the edge on how long they can expect people to stick around waiting and waiting and waiting. IF it is released this summer that will be 2.25 years between major releases and will set a record as far as I can tell for time between versions with any software I am familiar with.

I am frustrated here today because I have some decisions to make soon and if ZW does not get on the ball I will have to make a choice soon. I need to know if lathe is in the picture and when. If I don't get an answer on this then I will have to go as I have to have something to run the lathe I expect to get this year and if you guys don't want to be the ones selling me software just let me know. Silence by the way lets me know more than I wish. I hate writing this but don't you guys think it is about time you let your customers know what is going on?

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

Paul

Moderator

posts: 314

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 15 of 21

28-03-2011 12:49 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hey Dave,
times a wastin'. rattle your mouse not your sword, and get a download under way. Then let us all know what you think.
And yeap, you have to fill out a form.........
Oh, and be prepared for pleasant surprise.
Cheers

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 16 of 21

28-03-2011 05:24 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hey Paul, I was on it and looking forward to an evening of testing. However, the download fails to open so perhaps they need to get some sort of "smooth flow" downloading going. I had the same exact problems with the first set of ZW files on the web site and had to get a good link from Jarred. 14.7 downloaded fine so I guess one out of three ain't to bad for the smooth flow downloader. If someone has luck with this let me know. I will try the download one more time and if it fails again wait for further instructions.

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

Paul

Moderator

posts: 314

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 17 of 21

28-03-2011 06:52 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi Dave,
now think about this.
I am about as remote as you can get on the planet short of moving to the polar regions, yet I can get a 'smooth' download straight up.
Never had problems. I'd be mighty slow looking outside of the camp for the problem!!!
I'd be mighty curious to hear what you think once you have had a decent play.
Part was done via 2011 DE after putting the sketch AND I have full editable history.
Are you sure your copy if Windows is legit???
Cheers

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 18 of 21

29-03-2011 03:04 . am | View his/her posts only
The second time around worked so I don't have any idea what the problem was unless it was the downloader losing something. Of course the OS is legit but it is XP never reinstalled so sometimes a bit quirky. I will be moving to Win7 this year on all boxes as "Brand X" after June will be expecting that. Won't have a whole lot of time to play with this this week as I am really buried with work and catchup work after having a bad knee for a while. It is the curse of my life for 30 day demos and as soon as I get one I get distracted. Maybe I should store them up for bad times and when work is slow fire a couple of them up.

So what is your impression of 2011 Paul?

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 19 of 21

29-03-2011 07:56 . pm | View his/her posts only
OK so I have installed the beta and fiddled with it today. I won't uninstall YET it but probably won't fool much with it either as there is no documentation for DE that I can find and when the 30 days are up if there is no documentation I will be uninstalling. I should think that part of beta testing would be to give people basic guidelines on how to use the new features you want testing of. There is a survey asking what user opinions are of the beta and I won't be filling it out because I am not going to wade through click this and click that and try to figure out how to do things without documentation so I can answer the questions. "Brand X" for instance expects as a condition to be a beta tester that you be trained and provides training for the beta testers months in advance of projected release of new versions because it is important to get knowledgable user feedback before it is to late. This ZW2011 is basically just hanging out there with no clues on how to use it and I am not really sure why. This lack of documentation was also a problem with the v14 beta releases that some of us were allowed to try and there to I was left scratching my head over no documentation.

If you want a sneak preview of an undocumented beta version knock yourselves out and try this one. If your time has value and you expect the recipe with the ingredients then pass this by.

Rank: 1

Dave

Newbie

posts: 11

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 20 of 21

30-03-2011 08:06 . am | View his/her posts only
Good Morning,

Look in the help browser under what's new to get started with quick edit (what ZW seems to refer to ad direct edit).

Dave D

Rank: 1

cutter

Newbie

posts: 55

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 21 of 21

30-03-2011 11:39 . am | View his/her posts only
Dave D,
Thats the clue I was looking for. Now to see what it is all about. Thanks.
See also