CAD/CAM discussion forum > 3D CAD/CAM > ZW issue with gouging

ZW issue with gouging

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-7-12

Message 1 of 19

 ZW issue with gouging
04-05-2011 11:47 . am | View his/her posts only
A couple months ago we upgraded from VX version 12 to ZW version 14.

The CAM transition has been a nightmare. Every time we have tried cutting with the new software it has resulted in broken inserts, cutters and holders. This also means reprogramming and weld time. Since this does not work the work around has been that all geometry released in version 14 has to be VX neutraled out to version 12.

We are not seeing anything in the program or geometry. Randy from Great Lakes has seen gouging in Vericut but not any other program.

I have initiated dialog with Randy who has already brought this problem to the ZW team but with each passing day that we are getting "0" value from our CAM purchase the patience is wearing thinner.

Randy has an example of the defective programming which I'm sure has been passed on to ZW.

Please let us see that our upgrade was not a mistake!

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randy

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Registered: 2011-5-21

Message 2 of 19

25-05-2011 06:05 . pm | View his/her posts only
Well I am happy to report that the issue in ZW2010 was confirmed. The fix is to turn off the "optimize" in the Offset 2D long link type and use "clearance"
This was verified with a 3rd party verification program where we verified the nc file against the stl of the finished part.

I created the same operations in ZW2011 latest release on May 23 and with all default options and did not experience any issue with Offset2D using the "optimize" I also used Z level's defaults and Offset3D (long link optimized) all with no gouging.

I am glad it was fixed and I am sorry for any issues this may have caused someone. If any one ever experiences an issue please email your reseller or ZW support.

Thanks,

Randy Biebel
GreatLakes3D
www.greatlakes3d.com
814-460-1447
randy@greatlakes3d.com

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-7-12

Message 3 of 19

11-06-2011 09:14 . pm | View his/her posts only
This likely will be the end of the road for our company with ZW CAM.

I would like to see this work out but the same gouging issue which started with ZW2010 is still present with ZW2011. This has cost our company a lot of time and money with no true throughput.

I believe we bought the CAD/CAM software early in March. We are in June and we have yet to machine a workable die from the ZW software.

The work around for turning off "Optimize" does not work for us as there is an exorbitant ammount of sewing machine action with tool retracts.

I do not CAM program myself. I have used the VX/ZW CAD software for many years. Even though I have seen a moderate sum improvement with the CAD software I do believe a switch with CAM software could very likely lead to a switch in CAD software. I would rather not make the switch because of my growing familiarity with the software but we have to have a solution that gives both throughput and quality results every single job that we turn around.

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cutter

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 4 of 19

13-06-2011 07:57 . am | View his/her posts only
I know the feeling. I read this forum because I have had a number of years of use with VX and I kind of hate to let go. When I saw how bad the direct editing was and still had to deal with the same cam problems again for years in a row I decided I was gone and have let VX lapse, this time for good. I hate to see this happen and selling to the Chinese does not appear to have done anything significant to improve the software. I really like the inclusion of Transmagic, the only really positive thing to happen in the last three years but the rest of it saddens me.

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-7-12

Message 5 of 19

13-06-2011 08:30 . am | View his/her posts only
Quote

Originally posted by: cutter
I know the feeling. I read this forum because I have had a number of years of use with VX and I kind of hate to let go. When I saw how bad the direct editing was and still had to deal with the same cam problems again for years in a row I decided I was gone and have let VX lapse, this time for good. I hate to see this happen and selling to the Chinese does not appear to have done anything significant to improve the software. I really like the inclusion of Transmagic, the only really positive thing to happen in the last three years but the rest of it saddens me.


We are put in a no win situation with the CAM. With VX at least the Optimize would give us a desirable outcome. With Optimize not working the alternative is to use cutter paths that have an awful sewing machine effect. From what I have heard by tweaking the settings the sewing machine effect can be minimized. The question would be why would we want to go to the extra time and effort on each job to tweak the settings when there is other CAM software out there that can actually hold the cutter inside the impression?

As far as CAD I haven't even tried ZW's direct edit yet. At this point it is just an annoyance because in working through a model it many times wants to drop you into the direct edit context. I want to review what direct edit has to offer, as in certain circumstances it might be the way to go. As with anything I want to make sure something works correctly prior to implimenting it. I'll reserve my full judgement until that time.

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cutter

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posts: 56

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 6 of 19

13-06-2011 08:51 . am | View his/her posts only
Thats right, cutting air does not make money and gouges cost money. I have been using direct edit for three years now with another company and the direct edit here is to me an annoyance and not a productivity tool. 95% of all my parts are created in direct editing mode so it can be tremendously usefull when well done.

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Tony_ZWSOFT

posts: 44

Registered: 2011-8-22

Message 7 of 19

23-06-2011 03:15 . am | View his/her posts only
The direct edit may be not as good as your expected, as you konw, everything is not perfect at the begining. I hope you would give more advices to us, and we will continue to improve it. I am sure this function will be very useful.

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cutter

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posts: 56

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 8 of 19

23-06-2011 07:27 . am | View his/her posts only
OK here is some advice. The parasolid kernal which VX ZW is based on. Yes I know VX/ZW implements their interpretation on top of the kernal but it still is based on Siemens parasolids. In Talking to Dan Staples at the ST4 Rollout last week I discussed VX with him briefly. He smiled and said in regards to all the licensees of parasolids that the good stuff that makes direct editing work really well is not for sale and you can't have it at VX. So you have a problem there. I think the fact that it has taken over two years to get to the point you have with very limited capabilities demonstrates the road blocks ahead of you in implementing direct editing. Perhaps you would have been better served to have made the software reliable and fool proof instead in areas of cam for instance. You are not getting any glowing reviews here on the forums by actual users. Fix how VX/ZW beaks geometry. For instance the long time problem of cylinders being broken into three surfaces instead of one like it should be. This is a pain in cam plans. I get a report on a very basic and absotutely required in sheet metal corner command PCR started in 2005 in the mail yesterday and see it's new status is assigned to ZW but not fixed. What does this mean, 5.5 more years? This is one of many things in sheet metal VX has not fixed and sheet metal by the way was one of the things that caused me to buy Solid Edge as a cad replacement for VX. I bet 75% of all machine shops have along side their cnc mill a cnc lathe. No lathe here and seemingly no chance of ever seeing it here. I am not going to buy two cam programs just because VX will not develop support for lathe. Instead I have dropped VX and I will be looking for another cam program to replace it this fall as my lathe gets closer.

The biggest single problem for VX is that they have with tunnel vision sought out the Mold and Die industry only. VX has an earned and deserved reputation as being a great complex surface modeler. But what is that, maybe 15% of the total cad and cam market? My primary use for cad is MCAD along with the vast majority of other users. If you ever intend to grow outside of your little niche you are going to have to look at the offerings of companies like Solidworks, Solidedge, Inventor and the rest where not only can the mold or die be built but so to can the machines that hold them and the factory around them. THAT is the set of hurdles you have to jump.

I would also set up an actual machine shop environment in house and run the stuff you guys make before ever releasing it to the public. There are to many problems that get out and that users have to live with. If you guys would watch your own machines drive an endmill into the part, gouge or cut air or make gobs of moves that earn no money and cut no chips and fix it right then and there you would have happier customers.

I don't know what capital resources you have to work on stuff with. I can tell you that from where I stand there are a number of things that need to change and I think you have a limited amount of time to do it in if you wish to preserve your established user base. I am not the only one who has left. I have a small business and I want you to realise something here. You lose a customer and many times wonder why because most will not tell you. I am telling you why you have lost me so you have a chance to fix things and not lose the next guy to. You are in a big pickle and I hope you prevail but I have moved on and don't really care to much anymore other than having an academic interest in the software I used for a number of years. If you seriously want to talk to me Mike knows how to get in touch with me. I have said all I am going to say on this topic on this forum.

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warren

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Registered: 2004-10-28

Message 9 of 19

19-08-2011 06:36 . pm | View his/her posts only
I have had HORRIBLE results with a lot of toolpaths gouging. I have grown accustom to workarounds because the issues have not been fixed since I started VX V10.

What I have found is the default surface tolerances and gap tolerances are so small it plunges tools through gaps that are ignored in the CAD functions of VX. I have had some success changing the tolerances to eliminate these issues. I have had the same problems with imported geometry and native geometry. I have not been able to find a setting that tells VX to pass over gaps to the next surface below rather than plunge through. The issue has been maintained all the way to this latest release. As a result I rarely use VX for CAM. I do hope they resolve the issues because it is a pain exporting 'dumb' geometry to inferior CNC programs (BobCAD).

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Tony_ZWSOFT

posts: 44

Registered: 2011-8-22

Message 10 of 19

21-08-2011 10:36 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi Warren,

We are so serious with this kind of problem, would you like to give us more clear information. Such as the issue files, which version are being used? etc. The more information is more helpful for us to try to find out what the problem is and to figure it out.

Thank you for your support.

Tony Tan

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warren

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Registered: 2004-10-28

Message 11 of 19

24-08-2011 06:16 . pm | View his/her posts only
Quote

Originally posted by: Tony
Hi Warren,



We are so serious with this kind of problem, would you like to give us more clear information. Such as the issue files, which version are being used? etc. The more information is more helpful for us to try to find out what the problem is and to figure it out.



Thank you for your support.



Tony Tan


Where do I send emails and a file? I am not having luck with any of the new roughing toolpaths either. The roughing toolpaths all ignore the containment boundaries and default to "simple box" containment.

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Tony_ZWSOFT

posts: 44

Registered: 2011-8-22

Message 12 of 19

24-08-2011 08:30 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi Warren,

Our technical support team's email address is zw3d@zwcad.com, please feel free to contact us.
Thank you

Tony Tan
2011/8/25

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-7-12

Message 13 of 19

29-08-2011 12:19 . pm | View his/her posts only
Quote

Originally posted by: cncsurf
I have had HORRIBLE results with a lot of toolpaths gouging. I have grown accustom to workarounds because the issues have not been fixed since I started VX V10.



What I have found is the default surface tolerances and gap tolerances are so small it plunges tools through gaps that are ignored in the CAD functions of VX. I have had some success changing the tolerances to eliminate these issues. I have had the same problems with imported geometry and native geometry. I have not been able to find a setting that tells VX to pass over gaps to the next surface below rather than plunge through. The issue has been maintained all the way to this latest release. As a result I rarely use VX for CAM. I do hope they resolve the issues because it is a pain exporting 'dumb' geometry to inferior CNC programs (BobCAD).


That is interesting that in your application there is a tolerance driven problem which creates the gouging that you would get.

How were you able to discover that gaps ignored by CAD were the issue?

You mentioned that CAD ignored the gaps. Did you know there were gaps because of open edges?

I'm just curious whether this type of problem might be present in our application.

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randy

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Registered: 2011-5-21

Message 14 of 19

06-09-2011 06:07 . am | View his/her posts only
Hi Paulverisor,

My understanding of QuickMill is that it is STL based machining. It exports out your CAD data as an STL and calculates the machining on that.
STL exporting creates a solid by filling any gaps as it creates the triangles.
Nurbs based machining (3X Nurbs) can only machine the data in the model, if there are gaps or holes, depending on the cycle chosen it may gouge. You can change your default tolerances to a small number based on your part size but this increases calculation time.
The software does not know what size/relative tolerance it should run at.
ZW3D is a unique product because it gives you STL and Nurbs in one package, with flexibility, speed and power the software can only protect the end user so much.
I suggest setting up template files based on part size and using appropriate tolerances. This way you are sure that the proper cycle and options have been selected to ensure a successful nc program.

Randy

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warren

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Registered: 2004-10-28

Message 15 of 19

17-10-2011 04:53 . pm | View his/her posts only

I played with the gap settings and found work arounds to gouging. That eliminated a few gouging / plunging problems. The open edges will not show if you "heal" a part to say .005 tolerances. VX treats those open edges as closed edges. However, I supect the tolerances in the CAM package did not syncronize with the tolerances in the CAD side of the tolerance. SO, if you pick a solid to drive your cutter with say a .003 stepover and the tolerances were .005 or so in the CAD package, then VX looked for the next surface and would run right down to it. I had to tweak all my tolerances and eventually got it to work OK. I've lost al ot of cutters, money, and customers figuring this out. i do not have many CNC files (I rarely use VX for CNC programming anymore) but will find some to post for all to see.


Quote

Originally posted by: Paulverisor
Quote

Originally posted by: cncsurf
I have had HORRIBLE results with a lot of toolpaths gouging. I have grown accustom to workarounds because the issues have not been fixed since I started VX V10.







What I have found is the default surface tolerances and gap tolerances are so small it plunges tools through gaps that are ignored in the CAD functions of VX. I have had some success changing the tolerances to eliminate these issues. I have had the same problems with imported geometry and native geometry. I have not been able to find a setting that tells VX to pass over gaps to the next surface below rather than plunge through. The issue has been maintained all the way to this latest release. As a result I rarely use VX for CAM. I do hope they resolve the issues because it is a pain exporting 'dumb' geometry to inferior CNC programs (BobCAD).




That is interesting that in your application there is a tolerance driven problem which creates the gouging that you would get.



How were you able to discover that gaps ignored by CAD were the issue?



You mentioned that CAD ignored the gaps. Did you know there were gaps because of open edges?



I'm just curious whether this type of problem might be present in our application.


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Tony_ZWSOFT

posts: 44

Registered: 2011-8-22

Message 16 of 19

19-10-2011 08:23 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi, Warren
In my opinion, Paulverisor was right, if the gap is bigger than the cutting tool, the toolpaths would drop into the gaps. So we should fix the gaps first.
By the way, would you mind to ask you customer to give us some files about that.
Then we can discuss about that problem more clealy and efficiently.
Thank you.

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warren

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Registered: 2004-10-28

Message 17 of 19

01-11-2011 09:00 . pm | View his/her posts only
Where do I send the files. Attached is a screen shot of gouging. (I will send the actual file to ZW directly) This is a clean no gap model with a cutter diameter of 1/8"

Typical results of anything I've put out with VX (ZW) toolpathing. I can eliminate these gouges eventually but it takes a while and I have to try different operations before I get anything acceptable. This has been an issue since I first used VX.

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Tony_ZWSOFT

posts: 44

Registered: 2011-8-22

Message 18 of 19

02-11-2011 07:08 . pm | View his/her posts only
Hi Warren,

Thank you for sending us the pictures, but I am afraid that we can confirm the details just by the images.
I would appreciate that you could sent the files to us and which version you are using for, and so on.
Our technical support team email address is zw3D@zwcad.com.
Please feel free to contact us if you have any problem or some suggestion about ZW3D.

Thank you
Tony

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Mike

Newbie

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Registered: 2002-8-28

Message 19 of 19

18-11-2011 04:16 . pm | View his/her posts only
This information was sent to cncsurf on 11-02-2011

"When I added the part as a feature, the gouges went away."

The problem came about because the tool path only had a surface as the feature to work with. By adding the part, ZW3D knows what other features to avoid.

See also