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sketc reference point

    
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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 1 of 30

 sketc reference point
01-04-2013 04:37 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi i can't take references in one sketc i wanted to ask if in 2013 it has been disabled, or if i get something wrong
referrence impossible.png
2013-4-1 04:36

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chris

Junior Engineer

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Registered: 2011-5-24

Message 2 of 30

01-04-2013 07:07 . am   |   View his/her posts only
I also have this problem, I can select datums but not curves.

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Mirko

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Message 3 of 30

01-04-2013 07:16 . am   |   View his/her posts only
We exercise patience chris, say there are 600 improvements, we can only find them, but should be intuitive :D from joke we hard :)

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Ken

Newbie

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Registered: 2011-5-24

Message 4 of 30

01-04-2013 09:21 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 3# mirko72


I can't pick faces.

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 5 of 30

01-04-2013 04:08 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Mirk and you all,
Some light on this problem as I understand it - just so you know it is being attended to. Yes there are some issues with referencing in sketcher 2013 and ZW know exactly what it is and what to do to fix it.
Referencing in VX in the past has had some issues that for many users was perhaps not a problem but for people doing serious top down, multi stage tooling etc, the referencing was capable of falling apart. Badly!

So ZW have been working on fixing the issues from the core outwards starting in 2012SP2. The new Reference Tool is part of this.
Referencing tools have been upgraded in most places but in the rush to make the release date, the sketcher referencing upgrade was not completed in time.

OK. so the problems in sketcher reference depend on what you are trying to reference, geometry within the part or in another component.
If within the part, then wireframe view seems to work better than shade.

if from another component you have to 'force' the referencing with the Reference tool. This copies a geometry state into the active part that ensures that that subsequent changes to the origin component, do not destroy your reference.

Now, please accept this is a very brief second hand explanation of a rather complex problem.
William needs to put up the complete story and instruction - links, etc.

In the short term we need to make sure ZW bring out the complete fix in SP1 as soon as possible.
Cheers

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 6 of 30

01-04-2013 04:22 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hello Paul thank you for your honest answer, and i am sure that you understand the big disappointment that has created this release rushed , has brought our commercial offices to ask for reimbursement is a little go and buy a tv and once at home does not work, the marketing is done badly by this time only

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Ken

Newbie

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Registered: 2011-5-24

Message 7 of 30

01-04-2013 06:00 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Paul

I don't know if this is the same thing, I have found over the years that I had problems with references, if I altered the parent and then regenerated the child, regeneration would fail sometimes on the sketches, I couldn't see anything wrong with the sketches, except that the references hadn't updated to the change in geometry, I had references floating in the middle of nowhere, so the sketch failed, I got to the stage where I started, if it didn't matter, deleting the references after I had constrained my sketch, sometimes I had to reference the sketch again, Is this what you are talking about?

Ken

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Mirko

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 8 of 30

01-04-2013 07:08 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hello ken too i have the same problems, but also with new system with reference to assembly i have not solved , i always a few copies of a few face in most (certainly are my mistakes)

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chris

Junior Engineer

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Registered: 2011-5-24

Message 9 of 30

01-04-2013 08:25 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
thank you Paul for the explanation. I think it would be good for ZW to post the problems in a list. We would then know that a problem was being addressed. In VX we had a report section that worked very well It gave the status of a report and was searchable so everyone knew if a problem had been reported and what was the status.

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Ken

Newbie

posts: 17

Registered: 2011-5-24

Message 10 of 30

02-04-2013 03:45 . am   |   View his/her posts only
I spotted that I couldn't reference a face last week, I had a copy of a file of a die I am making in 2012, and was replicating some of it in 2013 to see how they compare. I didn't follow it up till I saw your post.

I am gobsmacked that they released 2013 version with basic functions missing, I haven't purchased 2013, and wont be anytime soon.

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Paul

Moderator

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Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 11 of 30

02-04-2013 06:08 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Guys,
Disclaimer: I am just a user so I have no idea how the machinations etc work inside ZW. I might even be wrong about some things as I am not even a techie on the innards of CAD. In fact I cannot even program anything beyond the microwave.
Re the old references failing, not showing up etc. Yeap all those issues are related. It is 'deep' inside the data management of the model, so not quick fix stuff.
It seems that the VX way was reference anything any time and hope for the best. This can work in lots of circumstances and is indeed a cool tool when used well.
e.g. you can take references back into a feature/sketch that did not exist when the sketch was made. Off course the link will fail on regen, but the smart operator uses the information, tweaks his sketch them kills the reference. I call call this Back to the Future modelling and I ma not sure who else let's you do it.

But as some folk know, it is not reliable in more ordered, progressive situations.

The new approach requires a higher user input to effectively choose which geometry elements are going to be used for referencing, add them as a unique object into the part, locked in the state referenced (or at least achieve that effect).

Ideally we will have both the controlled reference option AND the VX style anything referencing.

The issue for now is that current users have been provided with a release that is missing some essential functions for to modelling.

I have suggested that SP1 needs to be very soon and address just a few of these vital issues.

IMO Closing dialogues in sketcher is too clumsy and RMB pick a new function should exist.
Being able to change dimensions whilst outside the dialogue focus needs to be restored and zoom on roll whilst in a dialogue dumped.
'DE' dimension editing should be MUCH easier than now.
Wireframe line creation needs to work in all line modes and be a lot easier than now.

These are some of the vital changes I would want in SP1 along with the referencing fixed.

Perhaps we need a new thread on SP1 requests?
Cheers

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Paul

Moderator

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Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 12 of 30

02-04-2013 03:37 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Jon, you've been talking to the wrong horse. Cheers

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Paul

Moderator

posts: 344

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 13 of 30

05-04-2013 07:26 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Attn: Jon & Dave
In a technical thread it would be appreciated if you stayed ON Topic.
Regurgitating the same old stale opinions is plain annoying AND 'off topic'.
If you do not comply with this request I will moderate you out of the discussion for everyones benefit.
Have a lovely day.
Cheers

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William

Top Influencer

posts: 262

Registered: 2010-10-28

Message 14 of 30

07-04-2013 09:52 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Dear Every one, we forbid reference geometry from external components in this version. As what you said, this function has some latent problems. It seems that we lose flexbility but in fact we recommend users to use the correct way to reference external geometry.

For the past, during interpart modeling, when you referencing the external geometry in sketch, there is not timestamp, when you delete the parent geometry, the child geometry will lost reference and can't update again, since there is not handle mechanism for this problem.

In order to solve this problem, we develope the professinal Reference command for interpart modeling, which hase been done in 2012 SP2.

No matter what you want to copy or reference from external component, we will recommend the only correct way to do it.

2013-4-7 9-37-03.jpg
2013-4-7 09:37


About the function detail, please check the attached Powerpoint

Reference Geometry functions.pptx (559.17 KB)

Or download the video with below link to learn more about this command.

Video

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 15 of 30

07-04-2013 02:21 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi William thank you for the answer I knew the guide, but still i can't seem to understand how to do it, ok in a small simple part where the parties are also similar, but in a big assembly i failed to understand how to do :(

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William

Top Influencer

posts: 262

Registered: 2010-10-28

Message 16 of 30

07-04-2013 03:45 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Mirko, could you describle your real situation how you don't undertand to use? Or we can talk by online meeting directly.

How I understand the new way to reference in sketch? For example.

1.I have severla components in assembly, I want to stay in Part3 and refernce the face profile in Part4 then create something.

2013-4-7 15-23-54.jpg
2013-4-7 15:35


2013-4-7 15-33-43.jpg
2013-4-7 15:36




2. So we can reference the curve or face or the complete shape, it depend on you, because we can erase or hide them if without need them again.

Note: If you just reference the curve from Part4 by one time during designing, you can just reference the face or curve, but if you have several following step need to reference from Part4, you can reference the whole shape.

2013-4-7 15-37-03.jpg
2013-4-7 15:40


Summarize

It seems that ZW3D lose efficience when reference geometry from external components, we always need to use reference command to copy the geometry firstly, but as what I said, this is the only correct way to avoid the problems cause by reference's timestamp.

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 17 of 30

07-04-2013 04:37 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hello William, i am of the tests , and in 2012 but the 2013 i look of vital fix for me , then for sure I owe you disturb, ciao ciao

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 18 of 30

07-04-2013 05:52 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
I try to do an example that makes me confused, now in sketc i do a reference with zw2012 in 2013 how should I do?

esempio riferimenti.png
2013-4-7 17:52

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William

Top Influencer

posts: 262

Registered: 2010-10-28

Message 19 of 30

08-04-2013 10:13 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 18# mirko72

Hi Mirko, like what I said in my last post, you can reference the face or shape firstly so then you can reference them in sketch. If you still have problem, we can talk by Skype and help you using remote assitance.

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 20 of 30

08-04-2013 02:11 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 19# William_ZW3D


Hey william, thanks practically i references before you do the sketch, right?

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 21 of 30

09-04-2013 01:33 . am   |   View his/her posts only
I don't understand why I still have the faces that i used as reference to walk around the drawing -_- this thing so simple makes me go in confusion, if not I still have the references shown in the drawing as if they were parts, i must try more are too zuccone :D

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Paul

Moderator

posts: 344

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 22 of 30

09-04-2013 04:40 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Mirko,
I think I understand your confusion.
Did you watch the video again & again? (Use 'save link as').
The reference geometry can be added at the top of the feature list or just before you need it.
The reference geometry will look like it is in the part as a face, shape etc. But is only there for you to use, not a real object in the part until you use it as a feature component.

You can blank or erase reference elements at the end of the part. Then make sure the visibility properties in the drawing are set to only draw visible components.

May be this helps a little bit.
Cheers - Paul

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Paul

Moderator

posts: 344

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 23 of 30

09-04-2013 04:46 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 16# William_ZW3D

Hi William, I think the Reference Video is VERY good :handshake and needs to be posted on the Training page.

The Help would also benefit from a link to the video - wiki style!
All of your 'How to' videos should be given the same treatment.


I can see the power of this and especially being able to change the timestamp so easily.
Thank you - Paul

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 24 of 30

09-04-2013 06:57 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 22# mudcrab


Hello ok as i thought, it is a copy of the view, and if you do not want to see it should be hidden with more clicks, i there i must accustom will punish the clik faster of italia :D

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Paul

Moderator

posts: 344

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 25 of 30

09-04-2013 04:56 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 24# mirko72

Hi Mirko,I think this one will save a lot more clicks than it takes.
With a bit of practice, you will be able to do wonderful top down modelling that is robust no matter what.


For Z3 - Maybe it would be a good idea if reference faces and shapes had a unique color or something so you could tell which was the real shape/face.


Also would be good if the reference shape/face is only visible whilst editing the part in which it exists. It is not required ot see it any other time.


Cheers
Paul

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 26 of 30

09-04-2013 05:47 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 25# mudcrab


Hello Paul

yes yes we have to get used as all the new things , I realized that i make jokes about the fact that I am always and that i should always remember to regenerate, but plane arrival plan :)

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 27 of 30

10-04-2013 06:18 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 25# mudcrab


I am continuing to try and try, and it is certainly functional but a inconvenience unheard ,in my opinion too much to do to get the results, and is likely to be too messed up to the increase of the parties, if it is confusing there is a risk of having holes that do not serve, or the first regenerates to lose the changes you have made sure i am that i get something wrong :(

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 28 of 30

10-04-2013 06:45 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Port patience Paul , but i just do not understand this, you do not understand more than if you have parties double for error or if it is the reference that if you forget to remove creates what does not serve

I think that it is a good idea to leave at least an option to have old way


riferimenti.png
2013-4-10 06:45




:'(:'(

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Mirko

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posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 29 of 30

11-04-2013 10:46 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
I understand my difficulty, use google chrome that trace in automatic, but change page order making it difficult to understand, sorry, great guide

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 228

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 30 of 30

19-04-2013 06:38 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi guys

I have tried and retried , do not want to appear argumentative but this system is a very uncomfortable, and it reveals problematic to have a workflow fluid , i commit more errors so that with the old system
See also
X