CAD/CAM discussion forum > ZW3D CAD > ZW3D 2013 - Cannot get references to work within sketch? (Fixed)

ZW3D 2013 - Cannot get references to work within sketch? (Fixed)

    
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Dave

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Registered: 2012-1-19

Message 1 of 28

 ZW3D 2013 - Cannot get references to work within sketch? (Fixed)
21-05-2013 04:53 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
I have just installed ZW3D 2013 and cannot get references to work within a sketch.I can reference edges from the part i'm in but cannot references edges from other parts within the assembly.
I've been a VX / ZW3D users for 10+ years and i'm not doing anything different, should i be?
Does anyone else have this problem?
Many thanks,
Dave

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Dave

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Message 2 of 28

21-05-2013 08:26 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Dave,

I went through what you are going through. I do almost exclusively top down design. When wanting to reference features on another part, you have to use the "referencing" in Assembly, not in sketch or part.

You can create reference curves in assembly anyplace in the tree. It does not have to be when you are ready to do your sketch. I have found, although I don't know as it is correct, that in order to get some reference curves into my sketch, I have to use the sketch or local reference to select the assembly references I need.

My explanation sounds worse than it actually is.

William has an excellent explanation and instructions somewhere with a link somewhere in the forum. Can't look for it now, but if someone doesn't direct you to it, I'll try to find it at lunch.

DaveD

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Mirko

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Message 3 of 28

21-05-2013 10:27 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Here the excellent explanations of William


http://www.zwsoft.com/forum/thread-2660-1-1.html

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Dave

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Message 4 of 28

21-05-2013 11:03 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi DaveD / Mirko,
Many thanks for your replies.
I guess it will just take some getting used to the referencing before sketch creation. Hopefully referencing other parts within a sketch can be restored sometime in the future so we have both options?
I understand reference curves can make a sketch fail if they no longer existed (in ZW3D 2011 and earlier), but ZW did give the option to force the sketch to play and ignore the references that no longer existed. I guess this is not seen as acceptable practice.
I'll try to get to grips with the new way!!
Thanks again for your help - much appreciated.
Dave

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 5 of 28

22-05-2013 03:31 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Dave,
I understand the changes are a work in progress.
I have asked that we have a blend of old and new or at least an improvment in how you can drive referencing from inside a sketch.
My recent experience is that the new approach - similiar to NX - is actually quite effective and managable. So rather than using edges, I am more likey to use a piece of geometry directly.
If you have suggestions for improvements send them through to support.
Ditto the New assembly manager.
-Paul-

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Colin

Manager

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Message 6 of 28

22-05-2013 10:10 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi,Dave

We did make a change about the Reference Geometry feature, which includes the 'Record State', it is much more logical, as the update of reference can affect all of the parts which including the same Reference Geometry and prompt a choice to update or not, very helpful for the Top-down design, which fixed the unexpected Reference result.

I also attached the file for your reference Reference Geometry functions.pptx (555.78 KB)

Best regards
Colin

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

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Message 7 of 28

22-05-2013 06:20 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 5# mudcrab


Hello Paul, :( i failed to understand although explained how best this system , i remain always faces or edges in red around the drawing that is confusing, or you find yourself in a sketc to need to leave for lack of support . bah are still confused :(

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Paul

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Message 8 of 28

22-05-2013 06:42 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Mirko,from my previous post "I have asked that we have a blend of old and new or at least an improvement in how you can drive referencing from inside a sketch. "


I also think there should be an option to Keep/Not keep reference geometry - same as you can keep or blank sketches etc in extrude ..


This would mean we do not have to blank/delete geometry as a separate op.


IMO It is a work in process and can be much improved.


Time to expand your mind Mirko! before it explodes...


Ciao Mirko, dal mio precedente post "ho chiesto che abbiamo una miscela di vecchio e nuovo o almeno un miglioramento nel modo in cui si può fare riferimento all'interno di un disegno. " Credo che vi sia la possibilità di mantenere o non mantenere geometria di riferimento - come è possibile mantenere o vuoto bozzetti ecc estrudere... Ciò significa che non abbiamo a vuoto/eliminare geometria come op. IMO è un lavoro in corso e può essere molto migliorata. Tempo di espandere la vostra mente Mirko! Prima che esplodano... - (I hope!)


Paul

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Dave

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Registered: 2012-1-19

Message 9 of 28

25-05-2013 03:30 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
I've had some more time to trial this.....

Basically, not being able to create reference geometry within the sketch is like not being able to smoke in a bar.

You go into a bar knowing you want a beer, but once you got your beer, you want a smoke, so you have to go back out the bar for a smoke, then come back into the bar to finish your beer.

It's taken 7 years in the UK to invent an electronic cigarette that can be used in the bar.

So what i'm saying is, we don't want a ban on generating reference geometry within the sketch, we just need to make it safe, as the most natural point to create reference geometry is at the point of needing it. We dont want to wait 7 years for ZW's version of the electronic cigarette.

I think we need to apply the "associative copy" and "Record state" settings to the reference geometry within the sketch. This would then make them robust.

If the "Associative copy" option is not checked, then the geometry should auto toggle to construction geometry. And remain "Dumb" geometry with anchored constraints.

If the "Associative copy" option IS checked, then you have control over its state with the "Record State"

If both options are checked, but the geometry you are referencing is deleted, then the geometry in the sketch should auto toggle to construction geometry with anchored constraints and next time you play the sketch in the history, or edit the sketch, ZW should flag up a message to say that some referenced geometry has been auto toggled to construction geometry.

That's may take on this issue.

Sorry if the analogy is no good. Another comparison is like making a cake in the kitchen but the recipe book is old and fragile, so it has to stay in the study. No matter how much your have read the recipe, during making the cake, you keep having to go back to the study to make references to the book.

One last point, i agree with Mirko.......
reference lines left all over the assembly are no good.

Can the ZW3D guys give us some insight on what they are proposing to do with referencing and a time scale?

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William

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posts: 273

Registered: 2010-10-28

Message 10 of 28

27-05-2013 11:32 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Dear all, I guess I need to give your some clarification information about this modification in 2013.

1. Why we need timestamp in Interpart modeling (This is the root reason why why we stop "Reference geometry from external component in sketch")

http://www.zwsoft.com/forum/thread-2674-1-1.html

2. And the workaround Mirko already paste the post link.

http://www.zwsoft.com/forum/thread-2660-1-1.html

But anyway, I will not stop the ability for referencing geometry from external component, we just ensure users can use the correct way to do the system design before we finishing the improvement for this function. That's why ZW3D2013 do some transitional preparation.

We will open this abiltiy again in 2013 SP1, I can show you a littl the final effect as below.

1. "Reference geomtery from external component in sketch support timestamp"

2. New "Reference brower" will allow check reference relationship, even replace or delete. Note: This function wil not just used in sketch but alos in part, it will let your to know the reference relationship both reference internal and external geometry.

2013-5-27 11-49-10.png
2013-5-27 11:49



3. Speciall mark in Sketch feature when the sketch reference external geometry.

2013-5-27 11-32-19.png
2013-5-27 11:40


Even we can add timestamp in sketch, we will give warm hint to users. So that they can know use this way to reference external component geometry without timestamp.

2013-5-27 11-32-28.png
2013-5-27 11:42



Above are the draft plan in 2013 SP1, not the final effect. anyway, we will keep moving and thanks for all of your suggestions. ^ _ ^, I wish that we can't receive more and more different voices...

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Paul

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Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 11 of 28

28-05-2013 08:35 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi William,
the explanation and the proposed improvements are timely and much appreciated. So to confirm my understanding...
It would seem most our requests will be met:
#1) Ability to add geometry whilst in a sketch.
#2) Ability to manage time stamping at geo creation and edit later.
#3) Indication of ref geo in a sketch (a simple round dot would be fine)
#4) Referencing record to show object connected.
#5) Visibility management - see below.
What is needed is the ability choose if the geometry remains displayed in the model AFTER it has been referenced. If the answer is No, then the geometry should become invisible automatically in the same was reference lines in sketches are not visible on exiting the sketch.

Cheers - Paul

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Mirko

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 12 of 28

29-05-2013 02:29 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi guys but at this point would always leave the part available and have a marker that identifies a new part and avoid many click , no?

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William

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Message 13 of 28

29-05-2013 02:31 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 12# mirko72


Hi Mirko, I didn't get your point, what you really want to do?

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William

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Message 14 of 28

29-05-2013 03:08 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 11# mudcrab

Hi Paul,

I can understand your first four points, but not the fifth point, could you show me more information so that I can understand it.

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Paul

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posts: 354

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 15 of 28

29-05-2013 06:20 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 14# William_ZW3D

Hi William, hmmm, I thought it was clearly explained!

When we insert reference geometry it is not absorbed into the part. It stays even after we have used it.
Then we either have to erase it or blank it as a separate operation.


Mostly we only use that reference once, but sometimes multi use. So a choice ir required.


What I am suggesting is that the removal of the reference geo should be an option within the functions that use it or some such way of managing reference geometry from cluttering up the model space when it is no longer required.


I am interested in the suggested way of dealing with this as it si now.
Erase or blank?
Cheers
Paul

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William

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Message 16 of 28

30-05-2013 11:31 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 15# mudcrab

Hi Paul, good idea, we will consider it seriously.

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Mirko

Assistant Engineer

posts: 229

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 17 of 28

02-06-2013 04:03 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Post Last Edit by mirko72 at 2013-6-2 04:06

Reply 13# William_ZW3D


Hi with all due respect gee road , this system benefits not being too laborious, as in other products that do not want to brand , what I want is that when you create a new part the other parts must be available for clip references or shares in such a way as to leave concentrated who draw with a degree of freedom to 360 degrees
_____________________________
ciao
con tutto rispetto cambierei strada , questo sistema non porta vantaggi essendo troppo laborioso , come in altri prodotti che non voglio pubblicizare , quello che intendo e' che nel momento che si crea una nuova parte le altre parti devono essere disponibili per agganciare riferimenti o quote in modo da lasciare concentrato chi disegna con un grado di libertà a 360 gradi

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Mirko

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posts: 229

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 18 of 28

04-07-2013 02:10 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hello

from as i understood in SP1 there is a list of choice for the parties to use as a reference, but the system remains the same? For thus it is difficult to have a good workflow

_______________________

ciao

da come ho capito in SP1 ci viene proposta una lista di scelta per le parti da usare come riferimento, ma il sistema resta uguale?

perchè cosi è difficile avere un buon flusso di lavoro

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Paul

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posts: 354

Registered: 2011-9-17

Message 19 of 28

04-07-2013 05:23 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Reply mirko72


Hi Mirko, I didn't get your point, what you really want to do?
William_ZW3D Post at 2013-5-29 14:31


Hi William, I think Mirko is asking the the same as me for the geometry to vanishing once it is used. The 'good idea' to treat it the same as a sketch in extrude etc.
I think default should be for the geometry to vanish after use.
I really look forward to this being implemented well.
Cheers
Paul

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Mirko

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posts: 229

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 20 of 28

05-07-2013 02:34 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Unfortunately for me none of my employees wants to use zw3d 2013 for this twisted way of managing the parties, i had hoped would be just abandoned the way to something more sensible

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Dave

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Registered: 2012-1-19

Message 21 of 28

05-07-2013 03:00 . am   |   View his/her posts only
I agree with Mirko. Referencing outside the sketch for external objects is no good and this is the single reason i'm not using ZW3D 2013.
As stated in message 10 in this thread by William, the improvements need to be made in SP1 to re-instate referencing within the sketch of external objects with the improvements William explains.
I think this will be good.

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Mirko

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 22 of 28

05-07-2013 03:36 . am   |   View his/her posts only
To be honest i do not use zw3d2013 and i have 3 licenses for this reason then it is generally made worse the workflow it is slower to many more jams on all controls cad previews if so you want to call are late to have the fire of a command we must move to cell zoom in on key central only if we put in place, it seems to be a database of years 90, and any improvement things worse that work and those that go wrong remain the same

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William

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Message 23 of 28

05-07-2013 03:30 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Reply 22# mirko72

Hi Mirko, I just got the 2013 SP beta version yesterday, this problem has been corrected in it, I sent you the package download link to you by email. You can try it then sent your comment to me.

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Mirko

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Message 24 of 28

06-07-2013 01:00 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi thanks I'm trying, was rehabilitated

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Mirko

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Message 25 of 28

06-07-2013 01:28 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Post Last Edit by mirko72 at 2013-7-6 01:39

In any case does not work

The zero that you create to support a new part is always stopped in xyz does not update the position if the father changes


I think that it is far from a real solution that can arrive only by changing road

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Mirko

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posts: 229

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 26 of 28

31-07-2013 01:55 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi William
I think that you have made a almost good work in rc1
I noticed a problem however
When you insert a new component it defines an anchor point (Location)
In the latter does not update if the father change and remains fixed where it was created

I don't understand if it is wanted or if it is an error,

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Mirko

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Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 27 of 28

31-07-2013 02:15 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Screen for example
reference1.png
2013-7-31 02:14
reference2.png
2013-7-31 02:13

reference3.png
2013-7-31 02:13

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Mirko

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posts: 229

Registered: 2011-11-23

Message 28 of 28

31-07-2013 03:24 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Problem solved
Not everytime I used the latest version
See also
X