unstable dimensioning

    
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OldForumPost

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Message 1 of 23

 unstable dimensioning
18-10-2007 01:12 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Here is an ongoing problem.
I have to put a lot of drafting in my drawings. Esspecially when de parts I create will be made outside our shop.
Sometimes I have to make minor changes to de part after I dimenisoned it.
This can be:
moving a hole
enlarging a chamber
but also
change a color
removing a scetch so it doesn't appear in my overall assy.
Also I sometimes have to move an allready dimenioned view on a drawing to make room for another detail or so.
Lots of the time the dimensioning gets thrown aroud, so afterwards I have to check ALL the dims and correct some of them.
This gives me a lot of work.

It is not a new problem. It is an issue for many versions of VX. It seemes there is not enoug priority to correct this fault.
doen't anyone else have this problem.
I wil try to attache a very small file with one simple part and one sheet.
Move the view and see what is happening.

John

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 2 of 23

18-10-2007 07:45 . am   |   View his/her posts only

Hello John


The VX forum is not here to provide technical support, but we are here to help and help we will try to deliver. I have downloaded your file and tested moving your view in Sheet001 - and yes, your dimensions do not move with the view. If I create my own Sheet002 in your file, identical view, everything works fine. That I think is because I have ensured that the dimensions are snapped to critical points, which is essential.

If you are saying that 2D dimensioning in VX is not perfect, we agree with your opinion. We are doing something about it and if you compare the latest v12 (and soon v13) releases with earlier versions, there has been significant improvement already.

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OldForumPost

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Message 3 of 23

18-10-2007 09:15 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Chris,

I can understand your point, but also see my point that moving dimensions is a problem that I have had for such a long time that I wondered why it is not solved.
When dimensioning large plates with lots of holes it gives me a great deal of work to check, double check and recheck. and than stil.....
Today I even saw ordinate dimensioning change to red when I added a section view.
I am doing my utmost to pick dimensions to critical points.
I cannot emagine how to pick better than I am doing right now.
I tried many many times to draw oridnate dimensioning in both your sheet as my sheet, but only sometimes the dimensioning will stay stable.
I urge you to play around with my file whether you can repeat movement of the dims.
Enough said.
I am working in 12.86 and saw in the realease notes that there has been done work in version 12.92.
Is this also about this issue?

John

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 4 of 23

18-10-2007 09:31 . am   |   View his/her posts only

Hello John

This issue is not addressed in v12. There is only one way that you can ensure critical points are picked, and that is by selecting "critical" from the right-mouse menu before you pick the element to be dimensioned. If you do that, you should be fine.

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OldForumPost

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Message 5 of 23

18-10-2007 09:35 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Chris,
When I place ordinate dims here VX standard is set to "critical".
Do you mean that with every dim I set I will have to use the RMB and set it to "critical" again?
I don't hope so.

John

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 6 of 23

18-10-2007 10:59 . am   |   View his/her posts only

Hi John

Each time you launch a different command, check that the RMB pick option is appropriate. The selected option will be held for the duration of command use. The dimension wizard (light bulb icon) is an exception to that rule (in v12). It's pick is pre-set to default, for entity pick rather than point pick - point pick can be forced using RMB "critical", which is necessary for every point pick to be made with the wizard.

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OldForumPost

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Message 7 of 23

19-10-2007 06:21 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Chris,

It seemes I pick my points like you mentioned.
One last remark about "critical"
Picking a critical point is not allways accurate.

Sometimes VX will snap to the grid instead of the endpoint of a line.
I experience this when I have to make sectionviews on another angle than 0,45 or 90 degrees.
When I pick the endpoint of the line VX snaps often to the grid.Even when VX is set to "critical".
I am getting around this bij setting the smart pick off or I pick the points along the line instead or anything elso but function "critical".

John

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 8 of 23

19-10-2007 07:52 . am   |   View his/her posts only

Hi John,

If you are inserting ordinate dimensions, you have not got a choice, you must select critical points. I have never seen VX picking up the grid instead of a critical point - I shall test this in v12 and v13.

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OldForumPost

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Message 9 of 23

31-10-2007 01:41 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Chris,
Yesterday evening I tested with V13.40 beta, to see all the neat new things VX has added. Neat.
But....
It seemes that the dim. problem is still not completely repaired and does not come up in the releasenotes of V13.42

I made simple geometry like I send you before and added ordinate dimensions.
With movement of the view every dim seemes to stay put ,but not when the dims are changed
for exc.
tolerance added,
exploded and tolerance added at one dim,
dim streched to a different location,
dim added to one group of ordinate dims

Every dim is put on correctly, so there are NO faults made by me !
Do not underestimate the problems I get when dims change, in terms of mistakes and extra work.
Please have it fixed before releasing final V13!

John

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 10 of 23

31-10-2007 04:18 . am   |   View his/her posts only

Hello John

As you should already know, your reseller 4C has forwarded a PCR on the subject and in support of that document I have produced a movie that demonstrates the catalyst of the problem, which is the adding of new ordinate dimensions to an existing set. So, everybody is "on the ball". If we can translate that into a quick fix, we will.

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Message 11 of 23

31-10-2007 05:36 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Chris,
Thanks. yes I know.
I will be waiting on the results and will not come back on this issue for some time.


John

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Paul

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Message 12 of 23

31-10-2007 04:47 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Chris,
I endorse Johns sentiment absolutely that drawing dimensions really do need a 'tidy up'
i.e. Section views almost invariably indicate changed dimensions even when NO changes are occuring within the section view.

VX drawing is VERY powerful in that you change, remove, modify almost everything, line by line, BUT this appears to comes at the price of loosing 'intelligent' linkage to the parent object/part.

In most cases, dimensions are related to features, (face to centre point etc.) yet in VX, it seems, they are only attached to lines and points as they exist in the drawing.

Simple things become difficult. e.g. I want to dimension a diameter on a side elevation of a cylinder. VX simply doesn't know this is a cylinder so adding the dia. symbol is not an option except by devious means, which have to be repeated manually if the cylinder is changed in any way in the part. etc., etc.,

I summary, I dislike doing drawings in VX 'cos of the inherent risks as John is experiencing and would love to see a much improved drawing experience.

Cheers
Paul


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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 13 of 23

31-10-2007 06:17 . pm   |   View his/her posts only

Hello Paul

Quote

"this appears to comes at the price of loosing 'intelligent' linkage to the parent object/part"


You can't lose the link to the parent Part Object unless you choose to actually destroy it (and even that is not easy). You can associate your own drawing entities with a view, Tools tab/ Associate/disassociate entities with view (3rd icon from the RHS).

Quote

"Simple things become difficult. e.g. I want to dimension a diameter on a side elevation of a cylinder. VX simply doesn't know this is a cylinder so adding the dia. symbol is not an option except by devious means, which have to be repeated manually if the cylinder is changed in any way in the part."


You do not have to be devious - simply right-click the dimension, attributes, text tab, add the diameter symbol as a prefix. That's it, you can change the cylinder parametrically to your hearts content and when the layout is updated the symbol is retained.

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Paul

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Message 14 of 23

01-11-2007 02:44 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Chris,
the point is about 'intelligent', not linkage. Perhaps I am not explaing my self sufficiently well.

I do a drawing of a shaft with multiple diameters. For simplicity I only want to dimension these on the side view with NO arcs present (fillets excepted). I dimension the two point or entities are infact the silouette of the cylinder but cannot add the dia. symbol because it is not recognised as a cylinder, therefore a diameter. Off course diameter symbols apply to arcs which is to be expected.

I attach two pics of a simple cylinder from two CAD packages. One allows, one does not.

Cheers

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Kevin

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Message 15 of 23

01-11-2007 03:23 . am   |   View his/her posts only
You can do this Paul. I have attached a screenshot showing the steps based on your scenario. The second image is with the part diameter changed to show the diameter symbol still sticks. Having said that it is not as direct as the likes of SolidWorks, but then maybe v13 will make this easier?

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 16 of 23

01-11-2007 05:11 . am   |   View his/her posts only

I forgot to mention DiaDim, A VXDAL on the downloads page that gives you a command to do the job for you.

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Steve

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Message 17 of 23

01-11-2007 09:06 . am   |   View his/her posts only
Quote

I summary, I dislike doing drawings in VX 'cos of the inherent risks as John is experiencing and would love to see a much improved drawing experience


I wholeheartedly agree!
Sometimes I have 100+ dimensions on a sheet. I cringe EVERY TIME I have to update a drawing. It's a pita IMHO. Half the times, threads don't show up, crosshatching gets screwed up, especially when sectioning assemblies, etc..

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Paul

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Message 18 of 23

01-11-2007 01:04 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Thanks Kevin, OK, I have the text update thing sorted now. All advice much appreciated.

Will check out the DAL too.


Cheers

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Mike

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Message 19 of 23

01-11-2007 02:21 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
John, Paul, Kevin and Steve ... and don't forget Ringo,

The jury is out pending the release of V13. It doesn't solve everything but I believe the associativity is a lot better. We will leave it up to the users to determine how much better it is. One thing I would ask is that when you are testing the associativity that you create your dimensions new in 13. If you see problems with moving or regening a view, make a note of how you created dimension (Right-click dimension or the dimension tool bar, etc.)

John, See the attachment. Adding prefixed text symbols can now be done when inserting the dimension as opposed to adding it as an after thought.
And I believe your dimension problems are addressed in 13.40. Two of your dimensions in the attached part do not stick with the part (V12.86). How did you create the two dimensions on the right? If I duplicate your dimension scheme in 13.40 the dimensions work correctly.

Steve, Hatching of an assembly is a lot better in 13. the direction and spacing of the hatching is calculated for each component in a section view. Once that spacing is established, any changes that require a regen of the section will retain the hatch attributes.

Please keep those emails and PCRs coming. It is the only way we are going to make this software better.

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Paul

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Message 20 of 23

01-11-2007 03:18 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi Mike,
thanks for the encouragement ot contribute. Sometimes I feel like a bit of an old nag. Chris would agree with this!

The choices coming up during dimensioning is an excellent move. The only bit that seems to be missing is the option of picking a Named attribute bundle from the list at that time
If VX remembered the last chosen attribute bundle it would save having to set it in advance or after. Ditto for anything that used attributes, lines etc.
In fact you could eliminate the Attributes menu setting altogether if it was live with data entry. Less is more.

Another drawing improvement would be to be decide at part/sketch level if a dimension was to show in the drawing or not. A tick box in the either of the dimension dialoges. The selective ability would overcome the immense clutter when all the dimensions are shown.

Cheers

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ChrisWard2k2

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Message 21 of 23

01-11-2007 05:21 . pm   |   View his/her posts only

I think that overall VX v13 delivers a much better 2D dimensioning experience. Certainly there is still room for improvement and a number of sensible enhancements are being worked on.

I have updated the downloads library with the latest version of the DiaDim VxDAL, which is compatible with v12+ and v13.4x:

DiaDim

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Mike

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Message 22 of 23

16-11-2007 05:26 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
I am not sure exactly what dimension attributes you need in a Bundle. Version 13 uses new technology to create dimensions in a sketch. The size of dimensions automatically scales according to your zoom scale. So if you zoom in and work on fine detailts in a sketch the dimension size adjusts appropriately. The dimensions on the drawing sheet still adhere to the height specified in the Template.

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Paul

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Message 23 of 23

19-11-2007 04:18 . pm   |   View his/her posts only
Hi M ike,
I have used the new auto scaling dimensions bit and whilst I see the merit in the approach it does have its' drawbacks. Huge dimensions, invisilbe dimension's all in a sketch that is 'physically small'.
e.g. All the parts I am doing at present are less than a 250mm limit. My bundles are set for 2mm high dims. Auto scale produces these effects within that range because I do zoom in to pick points etc.
Then I zoom out and then need to fiddle with the tiny dims. which I cannot be read at limit zoom.

For this to become a winner I think there needs to be a an 'always visible' (when in Sketch) button in the toolbar that allows for the attributes asigned to be applied to all dimensions in a sketch. e.g. a Reset option or better still a toggle Option.

Less clicks is always better.

It's all magic to me?

Cheers
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